Introduction
The engagement between Dr. Ismail Abdulsalam and YahwehSaves began when a Quran-only Muslim, Murileak, posted a Hadith to challenge a Hadith-believing Muslim on the topic of Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad. The Hadith in question, referenced by renowned Islamic scholar Ibn Hajar, implied that Aisha had not yet reached puberty at a certain point in time, specifically during the Battle of Khaibar. Dr. Ismail, a supporter of Hadith, responded by presenting a quotation from Ibn Hajar, aiming to demonstrate that Aisha had reached puberty at the age of nine.
However, YahwehSaves countered this claim, asserting that Dr. Ismail had misunderstood the context of Ibn Hajar’s statement. Instead of proving that Aisha had reached puberty at nine, the evidence presented by Dr. Ismail reinforced YahwehSaves’ position that Aisha had not yet reached puberty even at the age of fourteen. This marked the beginning of an intense back-and-forth debate, where both sides presented their arguments and evidence regarding the age and maturity of Aisha during the events in question.
This article will detail the progression of their exchanges, highlighting the key points, evidence, and refutations from both sides. Below, you will find the responses from Dr. Ismail Abdulsalam and YahwehSaves, as well as the scholarly discourse that has emerged from their debate.
Murileak
Dr. Ismail Abdulsalam
Free tutorial (come back and thank me)
This addition is from a *Hadith commentary* called *Fath al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih Bukhari,* authored by the famous hadith scholar *Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 1449 CE).* This is important to note because it’s not made apparent in the hadith itself. The fact that some translators of the hadith have decided to include this is also telling. For what reason did they put this commentary in the hadith? *And why would Ibn Hajar claim that Aisha (ra) hadn’t reached puberty ? In order to answer these questions, we need only refer to Al-Asqalani himself:*
> I [Ibn Hajar] say: *To say with certainty, [that she was not yet at the age of puberty] is questionable, though it might possibly be so.* This, because A’isha (ra) was a *14-year-old girl at the time of the Battle of Khaybar—either exactly 14 years old, or having just passed her 14th year, or approaching it.* As for her age at the time of the Battle of Tabook, she had by then definitely reached the age of puberty. Therefore, the strongest view is that of those who said: “It was in Khaybar” [i.e., when she was not yet at the age of puberty], and made reconciliation [between the apparent contradictory rulings of the permissibility of dolls in particular and the prohibition of images in general]
See: _Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Fath al-Bari, vol.13 (n.d.), p. 143._
This explanation by Ibn Hajar reveals a number of important points which run contrary to the initial impressions of the hadith. *The first and most obvious issue with Ibn Hajar’s commentary is that he admits that Aisha (ra) was at least 14 years of age at the time this narration takes place, putting her well above the average age of the onset of puberty in the Near East during late antiquity* (and even by today’s standards). *This is most likely why Ibn Hajar felt his own conclusion was questionable.* Despite his own doubts, however, he suggests she must have not reached puberty due to reasons completely unrelated to her actual biological or psychosocial maturity: it helped him to reconcile an apparent contradiction in her behavior with the legal prohibition of adults playing with dolls. However, what makes Ibn Hajar’s opinion even more tenuous is that *his view was countered by other master scholars of hadith and Islamic jurisprudence, such as Imam al-Bayhaqi (d. 1066), who claimed that the prohibition was only declared after the events narrated in the hadith in question*
See: _Ahmad Ibn Husayn Bayhaqi, Al-Sunan Al-Kubra, V. 10, Ed. Muhammad ‘Abd al-Qadr Ata (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyah, 2003), p. 371._
That aside, it was not uncommon for young women in the past to own and even play with dolls, as these objects would be among the very few possessions they had prior to marriage. Commenting on the interpretation of toys and similar objects from past societies and cultures, anthropologist Laurie Wilkie notes:
> Highly valued toys and childhood objects can be curated well into adulthood and passed on to subsequent generations of children; therefore, artefacts found in the archaeological record may not adequately reflect the full range of material culture used and cherished by the users.
See: Laurie Wilkie, _”Not Merely Child’s Play: Creating a Historical Archaeology of Children and Childhood,”_
However, many of these realities escape the mindset affected by presentism, placing one in the position of making inappropriate moral judgments about our ancestors and their lived experiences. The fact that just a cursory analysis of the aforementioned narration so easily exposes the erroneous assumptions about Aisha’s (ra) lack of maturity should be evidence enough of the fallaciousness of this form of reasoning. That said, even if one were to admit to the complexities of childhood and development over time, these realities appear to allude to moral relativism—the idea that moral principles are only valid given their specific time, place, or culture. However, this couldn’t be further from the truth.
YahwehSaves
Take home from this sources you dropped for your brother is this:
1. At the time of the battle of Khaybar Aisha was about or 14.
> _*14-year-old girl at the time of the Battle of Khaybar—either exactly 14 years old, or having just passed her 14th year, or approaching it.*_
2. The next line of the text talking about the age of aisha at the battle of Tabook stated that:
*As for her age at the time of the Battle of Tabook, she had by then definitely reached the age of puberty.*
Here is the revelation.
1. The Battle of Khaybar came first, taking place in 628 CE (7 AH). It was a battle between the Muslims, led by Muhammad, and the Jewish tribes of Khaybar, a settlement north of Medina.
2. The Expedition of Tabook, on the other hand, occurred in 630 CE (9 AH). It was a military expedition led by Muhammad against the Byzantine Empire, though it ended without any actual fighting, as the Byzantines did not engage.
So, the Battle of Khaybar occurred approximately two years before the Expedition of Tabook.
Meaning that at the time of battle of kaybar Aisha never reached the age of puberty at 14 years old not until the *Battle of Tabook, when at the time had by then definitely reached the age of puberty.*
At age 9, Aisha was never at puberty neither was she at puberty at 10-14 but two years later at the battle of Taboook.
Thank you exposing the long time argument that I’ve been making that Aisha was never at puberty at age 9 not 14. In fact the conclusion from the source you cited helped me prove my point.
> _ Therefore, *the strongest view* is that of those who said: *“IT WAS IN KHAYBAR” [i.e., WHEN SHE WAS NOT YET AT THE AGE OF PUBERTY],…]*_
And it was after she entered puberty that the ruling on using doll was applicable to her
> _ …and *made reconciliation [between the apparent contradictory rulings of the permissibility of dolls* in particular and the prohibition of images in general_
The reasons Hadith stated why she still use doll was that she has not reached puberty. Meaning the same means which made them think she entered puberty at later age was the same means the people who said she hasn’t seen to allow her use doll. They must have known her biological maturity status at this time. So it was a AFTER SHE REACHED PUBERTY THAT DOLL WAS PROHIBITED.
That Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani raised question on this matter is not something not reasonable. It is good to raise question regarding something but the questioning doesn’t negate the facts already happened. Aisha was age 6 when she married Mohammed, she was 9 when she was statutorily raped. As at the age of 9 through 14, Aisha never reached puberty during Khabar war, however she certainly reached puberty at the battle of Taboook.
You went on to quote Laurie Wilkie to want to prove that girls do go into marriage with their toys and even passed it on to the next generation. This is misuse of text and it doesn’t bail you out or Aisha. Aisha didn’t fit into this description in any way or sense. She didn’t carry it over as it was forbidden to have a doll or image in Islam for the adult or girl at puberty. Aisha’s use of doll was forbidden just as it was for her predecessors both male and female.
Dr Ismail added:
Even if we are to entertain the impression you ran off with (from this addition by Ibn Hajar who say she was at least 14 years at that time), Sura 65:4 of the Quran, as you understand it, bails out this addition by Ibn Hajar)
Would you still reject the Quran or you will run to exegesis which you have none because you are Quran-only Muslim ???
YahwehSaves
When she was not yet at puberty until later time.
Surah 65:4 shows that a girl who has not reach puberty can be married and have sex with.
Mohammed hijab can testify with bunch of tafsir available
Dr. Ismail Abdulsalam
You missed the whole point and derived your own conclusion based on the same questionable opinion of Ibn Hajar.
Ibn Hajar was trying to explain why Aisha was allowed to play with doll whilst in the house of the prophet around the time of the battle of Khaibar when she was 14 years old.
The conclusion that Ibn Hajar reached (which he himself admitted that is _”questionable”_ as indicated in the Fathul Bari) is that she had not reached puberty at 14 years and hence the prophet allowed her to play with doll.
This opinion is NOT sound because a girl at 14 years should have passed her menarche or puberty especially in antiquity.
Surprisingly enough, after the prophet returned from the war of Tabuk (about several years after the war of Khaibar when Aisha would supposedly be 16–17 years), Aisha was still in possession of her dolls)
Hadith
> Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
> When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) arrived *after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful),* the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.
> He asked: What is this? *She replied: My dolls*. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
Sunan Abi Dawud, 4932
From the above, we can clearly see that at the time of the war of Khaibar or Tabuk, Aisha was at least 14 years old !!! This proves that she was NOT allowed to play with doll simply because she was young but because the prohibition against playing with doll for adolescents had not been declared at time as other scholars of Hadith, such as Al-Bayhaq, have pointed out.
So let me ask you this.
Whether 14 or 16 years as Ibn Hajar himself admitted, do you think this is not pubertal, especially when Aisha herself said that a girl at about 9 years (referring to herself/case) is already a woman ????
Conclusion:
The opinion of Ibn Hajar which he reluctantly reached just to find a justification for the permission for allowing a female of 14 or 16 years old to play with doll is NOT based on sound judgement.
YahwehSaves
Your claim (Dr. Ismail)
You missed the whole point and derived your own conclusion based on the same questionable opinion of Ibn Hajar.
Response (YahwehSaves):
No! I didn’t missed the whole point. I Infact understood the whole point and I’m going to make it known. The Ibn Hajar wasn’t the one who held the opinion that Aisha was 14 at KHAYBAR and that she has not at the time of her 14 years old not have reached puberty. Ibn Hajar was quoting the Hadith and was raising question yet stated that even though it is questionable, it might possibly be so. Ibn Hajar went ahead to state the reason why it might be so for Aisha to not have reached puberty at age 14. He stated:
*THIS, BECAUSE* Aisha *was 14 year old girl at the time of the battle of KHAYBAR …*
He then went on to say that at the time of the battle of Taboook she had DEFINITELY REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.
Note that this is two years after the battle of KHAYBAR. That means at Tabook she will be 16years old girl.
To further busted that what Hajar was using as evidence despite the question in his mind which he doesn’t stated, he cleared the air by saying:
*THEREFORE, THE STRONGEST VISW IS THAT THOSE WHO SAID: it was in KHAYBAR I.e WHEN SHE WAS NOT YET AT THE AGE OF PUBERTY*
Ibn Hajar stated the fact of the Matter despite the question it raised in him and said the consensus which is strongest (not weak) is that it she had not reached puberty at that age.
This is not his opinion that Aisha had not reach puberty. His concern and the facts are not one and the same thing.
You said (Dr. Ismail)
Ibn Hajar was trying to explain why Aisha was allowed to play with doll whilst in the house of the prophet around the time of the battle of Khaibar when she was 14 years old.
*Response (YahwehSaves)*
And please what was the reason? It was allowed for her because she was still young else not prohibited for her but when she reached puberty the playing doll was provided.
That Aisha at the age of 14 at kaybar reconcile the contradiction why she was allowed to use doll else if she has reached the age of puberty no need for her to use doll, therefore she was alllowed to use doll hence not prohibited. In fact he stated that it was the permissibility of doll and prohibition of images in general.
You said (Dr. Ismail)
The conclusion that Ibn Hajar reached (which he himself admitted that is _”questionable”_ as indicated in the Fathul Bari) is that she had not reached puberty at 14 years and hence the prophet allowed her to play with doll.
Response (YahwehSaves):
His questioning and his conclusion are oppose to each other. His questioning (which was not stated in the text) is not overshadowing the fact that he knows about Aisha puberty. Aisha never reach puberty at 14. His concern is not superior to STRONGEST VIEW on Aisha age.
You said (Dr. Ismail):
This opinion is NOT sound because a girl at 14 years should have passed her menarche or puberty especially in antiquity.
Response (YahwehSaves):
This is also false on many ground.
– the strongest view was that she wasn’t at puberty
– that tells you that it wasn’t Hajar opinion and if Hajar put forward the strongest view over his own opinion (which is the question in his mind not stated) then it IS SOUND.
– Not all girls reach puberty at the same time. There is variations in the time girls reach puberty and evidence suggested that at the time of medieval Arab, due to poor hygiene and lack of good nutrition, maturity occurs slowly and hence delay in onset of puberty therefore girls reached maturity late.
Your claim (Dr. Ismail):
Surprisingly enough, after the prophet returned from the war of Tabuk (about several years after the war of Khaibar when Aisha would supposedly be 16–17 years), Aisha was still in possession of her dolls)
Response (YahwehSaves):
You didn’t pay attention to my response on this. I’ve already stated that it was two years after kaybar that the doll was prohibited Aisha and the reason was that it was at that time that she reach puberty.
The Battle of Tabuk took place in 630 CE (9 AH in the Islamic calendar), during the lifetime of Muhammad.
The Battle of Tabuk or Taboook occurred after the Battle of Khaybar, which took place in 628 CE (7 AH). Therefore, the Tabuk expedition happened two years after Khaybar.
So you argument still didn’t prove or disprove anything.
Aisha was 14 at kaybar not her reached puberty therefore doll was permitted for her
Aisha at tabuk or tabook was 16, she has reached puberty, the doll was prohibited her
Therefore at 14 never reached puberty hence doll was allowed for her.
*You [Ismaila] quoted an Hadith below*
Hadith
> Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin:
> When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) arrived *after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful),* the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.
> He asked: What is this? *She replied: My dolls*. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.
Sunan Abi Dawud, 4932
*Response (YahwehSaves):*
This Hadith still prove my point that it was after she turned puberty that she was forbidden use of doll at that was two years after kaybar (when she was 14) and this time she was 16.
*Your said (Dr. Ismail):*
From the above, we can clearly see that at the time of the war of Khaibar or Tabuk, Aisha was at least 14 years old !!! This proves that she was NOT allowed to play with doll simply because she was young but because the prohibition against playing with doll for adolescents had not been declared at time as other scholars of Hadith, such as Al-Bayhaq, have pointed out.
*Response (YahwehSaves):*
You are now becoming more fraudulent by saying what the text didn’t say.
1. Kaybar and Tarbuk are not the same war or event. So to say kaybar or Tabuk aisha was 14 as if it is talking about the same event is fraudulent. Aisha was 14 years old at kaybar but 16 at taburk/Tabook.
2. The Hadith you quoted is not a reference to when she was 14 at kaybar but after kaybar which was at Taburk/tabook
3. The narrator is doubtful which is in the brackets wasn’t a reference or doubt about an event at kaybar where Aisha was a girl of 14 but event that unveiled after Tabook when Mohammed came back from the expedition (AFTER RHE EXPEDITION TO TABUK). I would suggest that the reference to kaybar and Tabook at the same time is what made the narrator doubtful because it is not an event of kaybar but after it.
Your said (Dr. Ismail)::
This proves that she was NOT allowed to play with doll simply because she was young but because the prohibition against playing with doll for adolescents had not been declared at time as other scholars of Hadith, such as Al-Bayhaq, have pointed out.
Response (YahwehSaves):
You messed up this narrative boy.
What this actually proves was that she WAS ALLOWED (NOT SHE WAS NOT ALLOWED) TO PLAYED WITH DOLL SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE WAS YOUNG but because the prohibition against playing with doll for A GIRL WHO HAS NOT REACHED PUBERTY DOES NOT APPLIED TO HER (not that it has not been declared at time)
You said (Dr. Ismail)
as other scholars of Hadith, such as Al-Bayhaq, have pointed out.
Response (YahwehSaves):
There is no evidence that Al-Bayhaqi was right as regards this. And this source is even questionable since Ibn Hajar wasn’t the only one who reported that doll was permissible for because she was still not yet reached puberty.
Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, NOT YET REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY.)
(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151)
Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida’ (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 163)
Don’t tell me that they are wrong as well thar Aisha was permitted to use doll because she hasn’t reached puberty. The Arabic word jariya used in the above Hadith showed she is not of puberty age.
To prove that Aisha never reached puberty at 14 and no periods until
Her 16th year, Aisha got her period at hajj and then she was 16. Her marriage was consummated in the year 622, and this journey for hajj took place in 629. Therefore, Aisha was about sixteen years old at this time. Sunni and Saudi scholar Mushin Khan proved my points and I’m willing to prove it beyond doubt. Aisha was 16 when she reached puberty.
To be continued (Part II)
In the next part we shall start with Dr Ismail response to YahwehSaves. Dr. Ismail will quote YahwehSaves and respond to him. We encourage the readers to see how Dr Ismail arguments are illogical and flawed.
