“Does Migration Make One Indigenous?” – YahwehSaves vs. Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam

Debate Introduction

The question of who qualifies as “indigenous” to a land has long sparked heated discussions worldwide. This debate between YahwehSaves and Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam tackles a topic at the heart of identity, history, and cultural rights: Does Migration Make One Indigenous?

Debate Background
This debate began with a question posed by a Christian, Ibn Danny, who asked why Arab Muslims often avoid marrying Black Africans, pointing out instances where Egyptian women have married Africans. Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam responded by asserting that Egyptian Arab women do indeed marry Africans, implying a seamless integration of Arabs within the Egyptian identity. YahwehSaves then interjected, challenging this notion by asserting that “Egyptian Arabs” are not truly Egyptians but are, instead, Arabs who settled in Egypt, separate from the indigenous Egyptian identity.

This sparked a deeper exploration into the concept of indigeneity: Can a group become indigenous through migration and centuries of residence, or does indigeneity remain solely with the original inhabitants of a land? This issue is especially relevant in contexts like Egypt, where historical migrations have led to complex identities and cultural layers. Addressing these questions is critical as it highlights how we define and respect native identities amid global migrations and multicultural integration. This debate aims to clarify these complex issues, shedding light on the broader implications of defining “indigenous” status in modern society.

This issue has significant implications: it touches on the rights and recognition of native populations, the influence of cultural heritage, and even modern legal and societal definitions of “indigeneity.” As countries around the world grapple with the legacy of migration, colonization, and displacement, this debate offers an opportunity to examine the standards and principles that define who can rightfully be called an indigenous people.

The debate was compiled from discussions in a WhatsApp group where the textual debate took place. We will begin with an overview of what led to the debate to provide readers with context, followed by the exchange between Ismail and YahwehSaves.

Ibn Danny (The Questionnaire)
Why do the Arabs never liked giving their daughters to black Muslims in marriage? Are black Muslims not Muslim enough to marry Arab Muslim women? Why is it considered almost a taboo for the Arab Muslims to give their daughters to black Muslims when in Europe we have many black men married to white Caucasian and European women? Why do the Arabs hate the black people so much and still want the blacks to identify with Islam to promote Arabian interest and cultural hegemony against the black people?

Your opinion please

Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam
The reasons are more complex than you think and this is not limited to the Arabs alone but also to many race as well such Indians, Pakistani, Chinese and even Europeans.

Before I mention the reasons, I want to correct this notion of yours that the European women are freely marrying the black men. This is wrong notion.

If you see a white European woman marry a black man, then in most cases (I am not saying all), there is an interior hidden agenda for it. For example, because the black man is rich and famous and not necessarily because of “love”. Take the case of the Ivorian footballer Ebue who married a white European woman but she ripped him off and dumped him.

There are many other untold bitter stories of similar nature.

On the other way around, you have also black men from Africa willing to travel abroad to marry white European women (even old women) just to escape the hellhole of the hardship in Africa, etc.

Now I will mention the reasons I promised you…

Brb

Ibn Danny
There is nothing complex here baba. My uncle, Ujah Emeh, married and Indian woman and they have 3 kids (a girl and 2 boys) and are here in Lekki. Denrele is a Yoruba guy but his mother is Indian. Stop talking bull crap about the Indians

Hundreds of Igbos are getting married to Chinese women. I means hundreds and many more. One Igbo man and his Chinese wife are very active on Facebook (the Topson family if I’m right) and they have 5 kids. The name of the first born is Anthony.

European women are getting married to many poor black men, even asylum seekers. The easiest way for a blackman to get a working and residential permit in Europe is to marry a white woman and many black guys are doing it everyday. Don’t tell me about Emmanuel Eboue. You cannot use the misfortune of one man to destroy a working system. Even Tiger Woods, Ashley Cole and Mike Tyson have similar problems with women that made them lose hugely financially.

Now I asked you again, why do the Arab Muslims reject giving their daughters in marriage to black Muslims? Why will Arab parents prefer killing their daughter who attempts having any affair with black Muslims? Why is it impossible, for Nigerian Muslims who go for hajj in Saudi Arabia, to marry Saudi women? Why is impossible for Nigeria Muslims, Imams and sheiks to marry an Arab woman either in Qatar, UAE, Libya, saudi Arabia or Oman?

If you can’t answer please don’t come here and start lying as usual

Note: Dr Ismail went back to the question asked to extend his first response as below

Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam
These are some of the reasons among others.

(1) Cultural barrier
Even though the religion of Islam does NOT forbid interracial marriage, culture difference is one of the factors that dictates choice of spouse among humans and the Arabs, just like many other race or ethnicity, are not left out.
The Arabs would naturally prefer to marry spouses from their own ethnicity rather than from the blacks OR from other non-Arabs. So it is NOT as if the Arabs are discriminating against the blacks only.
(2) Modern stereotype notion.
The image of the black in our modern age is soiled with a number of negativities because of the activities they indulged themselves in abroad.
This is evidenced by reports you yourself can testify to.
Because of this, including other things, the Arabs might be too wary of marrying into the blacks.
(3) The black themselves are no different.
The majority of blacks would also prefer to marry from their own ethnicity (and NOT even their own RACE).
How many Igbo man in Nigeria would be willing to marry a Hausa girl (even if they belong to the same religion) ? I guess only a small fraction if there is even any !!!!
So it is NOT as if the blacks are going out and seeking marriage from other white races.

Note: To the last response given by Ibn Danny, Dr. Ismail now responded 

Dr. Ismail Tiamiyu Abdusallam
Anecdotal claims and fallacy of generalization.
I have a friend, Yarima, who married an Egyptian Arab girl and they are both in Nigeria with their kids.
There are many others like this.
How does this mean this is a common ?
So just because your uncle married an Indian girl (which we can not verify, especially given that even Indians themselves have caste system where marriages are often denied based on caste), does NOT mean that such marriage is common or easy to come by between a black man and an Indian woman

YahwehSaves Response
Egyptians are Africans

When did they become Arabs

Dr. Ismail (To Ibn Danny)

You must be kidding me !!!

It is NOT a common thing to find white European women willing to marry an asylum seeking black man (for who he is !!!!)

You want to portray a false picture like it is a common thing !!!; No !!! This is pure delusion from you !!!

 

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Olodo

Israelites were once in Egypt as well.

So by your logic, there are Africans as well

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

So the Israelites are Egyptians

You are the worst thinker ever existed

 

Egyptians are Africans

You said israelites were once in Egypt as well

How does this correlate with what I’m saying?

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

And who tell you that race changes by change in place of settlement ?

Are the white Australias or New Zealanders now Aborigines or Maoris ?

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

Useless argument

You meant Egyptains are Arabs? What makes them Arabs?

Your logic is flawed

Muslims thinking stinks

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

We are talking about race !!! Olodo

The Egyptian Arabs are not black or negros even though Egypt is located in Africa.

Being African is necessarily being negro

Ad hominem when you are busted !!!

 

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

You implied that Egyptians are Arabs by race, which is not accurate. Egyptians are Africans both by geographical location and by race. Egypt is located in Africa, and the people native to Egypt, prior to the Arab conquests, are ethnically and historically African.

Let us addressing your misuse of terms
You seem to be confusing the concept of African identity with Arab identity. Let me clarify:

Egyptian Arabs exist under different conditions, such as through:

– Nationality in which some Arabs may gain Egyptian nationality due to residency or privileges.
– Intermarriage. In this case an Egyptian woman may marry an Arab man, and their children may be Arab by paternal lineage. However, this does not change the fact that Egypt, by its historical roots and location, is African, and Egyptians are inherently Africans.

In this context, the racial or ethnic identity of Egyptians does not suddenly shift due to Arab influence or intermarriage. The Arabization of Egypt through the spread of Islam introduced the Arabic language and culture, but Arabization does not erase the African roots of Egyptians.

Let us also clarifying the “Negro” misunderstanding
You are now misusing the term “Negro” and derailing the discussion. When I referred to Africans, I was not making any reference to the color of their skin or implying that all Africans are Black. Africa is a diverse continent with people of various ethnicities and skin tones. Your introduction of this point is a straw man fallacy, as it diverts from the real issue.

The argument is not about skin color but about geographical and ethnic identity. Egyptians are Africans because they are indigenous to the African continent. Race is not solely defined by skin color, and being African does not automatically equate to being “Black.”

Returning to the core point, Egyptians were not Arabs until the Arabization that took place through the spread of Islam in the 7th century. Before this, Egyptians were African, with ties to their indigenous heritage, including ancient Egyptian civilization. While Arab influence brought about cultural and linguistic changes, it does not retroactively change the fact that Egyptians, by origin and race, are Africans.

This is why I said you thinking stinks.

Ire o!!!

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Liar !!!

I never said Egyptians are Africans by race !!!

My case is that Egyptian Arabs are NOT negro !!!

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

So to say Egyptiansare Arabs is useless claim

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Error

Egyptians does NOT necessarily mean negros. You can have Egyptians who are white Arabs

 

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

Backtracking.
“I have a friend, Yarima, who married an Egyptian Arab girl and they are both in Nigeria with their kids.”

Egyptian Arab girl by race or by privileges ?

was the word Egyptian qualifying or Making a racial link to Egypt? If no? Then it defeat your claim based on the discussion that is ongoing between you and @Von Manstein Ibn danny

where do we talked about negro in any of the discussion? This is what we called straw man!!!!

 

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Error from a confused mind !!!!

You seem to think that Africa was inhabitated by black race from inception. This is wrong notion.

When I say “An Egyptian Arab girl”, I mean a white race girl of Arab origin (as opposed to negro/black race).

The white Egyptians today can see themselves as white by RACE and Africa by location (but NOT negro)

The word Africa is NOT same as negro

The word Africa is ONLY a location and NOT necessarily race

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

If you claim that the Egyptians are NOT Arabs (just because they came there), then nobody is going to be called Egyptians because after all EVERYONE came to Egypt and nobody sprouted from the Egyptian soil itself.

Can you see how stinking your logic is ?.

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

I’ve corrected this useless talk earlier and you are still repeating it. This shows how retard you are and it is not because of anything but your islam made you so. Let me correct you again

Your statement introduces a straw man argument by bringing in “negronism” and “whitism,” which were never part of our discussion. We have not been talking about color terms like “Negro” or “White” in this context. The discussion is about ethnicity and geographical identity, not about skin color.

To clarify:

Egyptians are Africans, by both geography and heritage. While some Egyptians today may have lighter skin tones due to Arab intermarriage or other factors, this does not make them Arabs by origin. Skin color is influenced by melanin and the environment, but it does not define one’s ethnicity or racial identity.

Your claim that “Egyptians can be white Arabs” misrepresents the core historical truth. Prior to the Arabization of Egypt, Egyptians were not Arabs—they were Africans with their own distinct identity, culture, and civilization. It was after the Arab conquest and the spread of Islam in the 7th century that Egypt adopted Arabic culture and language, leading to the introduction of Arab influence. However, this did not erase their African identity.

In short, Egyptians are Africans, and this is the essential point, independent of the skin color variations introduced by environmental and historical factors.

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

To think that Egyptians can NOT be Arabs is a useless thought

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

I’ve exposed you on this. It was Islamization that brought Arabization of the Africans. Islam is about ethnicity eradication.

 

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Your level of retardation is now on the point of no return

You are still confusing negro and Africa to mean one and same thing !!!!

False

Egyptians are Africans but not necessarily negro

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

Evolution of argument. Mind you that was our argument. Egyptians color doesn’t change them from being Africans to Arabs.

You are busted. Go get life.

YahwehSaves (To Dr. Ismail)

Claim 1:
You seem to think that Africa was inhabited by the Black race from inception. This is a wrong notion.
Response:
Bring me evidence that Arabs inhabited Africa from its inception. Historically, Africa was inhabited by indigenous African populations long before the Arab expansion through the Islamic conquests. The notion that Arabs were present from the start is historically inaccurate. Arabs only arrived in North Africa in the 7th century through conquest and cultural diffusion. Before this, Egypt and the rest of Africa were inhabited by African peoples, including the ancient Egyptians, Nubians, Berbers, and others. These groups were ethnically African, not Arab.

Claim 2:
When I say “An Egyptian Arab girl,” I mean a white race girl of Arab origin (as opposed to negro/black race).
Response:
You are lying. You never mentioned anything about “white race” in your initial claim, nor did you imply anything about skin color. Being Arab and African is about ethnicity and geographical origin, not skin color. Arabs, as an ethnic group, primarily come from the Arabian Peninsula, and their presence in Egypt is due to the Arab conquests, not because Egypt was Arab from the beginning. Egyptians are African by race and geographic identity, regardless of skin color. Your attempt to categorize Egyptians by color rather than historical or ethnic identity is misleading.

Claim 3:
The white Egyptians today can see themselves as white by RACE and African by location (but NOT negro).
Response:
This is a false assertion. Skin color alone does not determine race or ethnic identity. Just because an Egyptian may have a lighter skin tone does not mean they are of the “White race.” Egyptians are African by heritage and ethnicity, regardless of skin tone. Saying that lighter-skinned Egyptians belong to the “White race” based on skin color alone is equivalent to claiming that light-skinned Nigerians are suddenly of the “White race.” Race and ethnic identity are much deeper than skin color—they are tied to historical, cultural, and ancestral origins, which in the case of Egyptians is African.

Claim 4:
The word Africa is NOT the same as negro.
Response:
Thank you for inadvertently supporting my point. The fact that you now acknowledge that Africa is not synonymous with “negro” shows that you understand but just arguing for no reason or you are intellectual dishonest. My point was never about color but about ethnic identity. You are contradicting yourself by now admitting that Africa cannot be reduced to a racial category like “negro.”

Claim 5:
The word Africa is ONLY a location and NOT necessarily race.
Response:
This is also false. Africa is not just a geographical term; it also refers to ethnic identity and cultural heritage. Africans, regardless of race or skin color, share a historical connection to the continent and its people. The word Africa denotes more than geography—it signifies the home of various indigenous peoples and civilizations, including Egyptians, Nubians, Berbers, Zulus, and many others. To limit Africa to just “location” ignores the rich ethnic and racial diversity that defines it.

So far I’ve showed how your argument is useless and without any sense.

 

Dr. Ismail (To YahwehSaves)

Busted !!!!

Refutation

(1) If you can NOT prove that the negro where the first to inhabit Africa from its inception, THEN you claim of who came to where becomes INVALID !!!! Arabia being close to Africa and accessible via land route is a good reason to postulate that being African is NOT necessarily being negro !!!!And this is my whole point !!!

Refutation 2

Confused man, go and ask you colleague I was initially discussing with.My point is that an Egyptian Arab girl (as we understand today) is NOT a negro !!!

So you have derailed from the crux of the argument and are now wallowing in mud of fallacies of equivocation of negro with Africa

Refutation 3:

This is a fact you can NOT dispute !!!! The Egyptian Arabs can see themselves as white (and NOT negros) by race and African by location

You can not change this even if you cry a river !!!!

Refutation 4:

To claim that African is ethnicity rather than location is NOT only laughable but unprovable !!!

Africa is a continent (hence a location) like I already rightly said.

The word Africa does NOT specify an ethnicity or race (even though many of its inhabitants today are predominantly negros/blacks).

 

_________________________________________________________________________________
After the debate between Ibn Danny and Dr. Ismail shifted the moment YahwehSaves interjected, challenging Dr. Ismail’s claims, this continue to build up until it led to a heated exchange. In the next parts, we will feature the debate between Dr. Ismail and YahwehSaves on this subject.

Debate- Does Migration Make One Indigenous? (Part II)