Dr Ismail
Well, before you run off with this notion as a Christian, here is one among other things you need to consider:
______
If Jesus himself truly prophesied his own crucifixion and resurrection, then we need to scrutinize this prophecy to see whether or not this is just a statement falsely ascribed to Jesus or that was put in the mouth of Jesus by authors/impostors.
My Response(YahwehSaves)
You raises a question about the authenticity of Jesus’ prophecy, suggesting that it might have been falsely ascribed to Him by the Gospel authors or other individuals. Let us carefully and effectively address this concern:
1. Historical Reliability of the Gospels
The claim assumes that the Gospel authors might have fabricated Jesus’ prophecy. However, the Gospels are widely recognized as historically reliable documents, even by many non-Christian historians. Consider the following:
Multiple Independent Sources
Jesus’ prophecy of His death and resurrection appears in all four Gospels, often in multiple passages (e.g., Matthew 16:21; Mark 8:31; Luke 9:22; John 2:19-22). This consistency across different sources strengthens the argument that the prophecy was genuinely attributed to Him.
Eyewitness Testimony
The Gospel accounts are based on eyewitness testimony (e.g., John 19:35) or accounts derived from close companions of eyewitnesses (e.g., Mark’s Gospel, traditionally linked to Peter). Fabricating a prophecy of such significance would be difficult to sustain without being called into question by early critics.
2. Criterion of Embarrassment
One of the strongest arguments for the authenticity of Jesus’ prophecy is the principle of embarrassment in historical analysis:
1. The disciples initially struggled to understand or believe Jesus’ prediction of His death and resurrection (e.g., Mark 9:32).
2. Peter even rebuked Jesus for saying He would die (Matthew 16:22-23).
3. After His death, the disciples were devastated and confused, not expecting the resurrection despite Jesus’ repeated predictions (Luke 24:21; John 20:9).
These details suggest that the prophecy wasn’t invented to make the disciples look good but rather reflects a genuine part of Jesus’ teaching that they found difficult to accept.
3. Early Church Context
If the prophecy were falsely ascribed to Jesus after His death:1. The early Christian movement would have faced immense risk in propagating a fabricated prophecy. The Jewish leaders and Roman authorities could have easily discredited such claims if they were based on a known falsehood.
2. Instead, the rapid growth of Christianity, even under persecution, indicates that the central claims of Jesus’ death, resurrection, and His foretelling of these events were persuasive and credible.
4. Jewish Messianic expectations
At the time, the majority Jewish concept of the Messiah did not include the idea of a suffering and crucified figure (which we will expatiate on later). The disciples and Gospel authors would have had no motivation to fabricate a prophecy about crucifixion, as it was a scandalous and humiliating form of execution (1 Corinthians 1:23).
The fact that Jesus predicted His death in a way contrary to popular Messianic expectations further supports the authenticity of His prophecy.
5. Addressing the accusation of impostors
You suggests that the authors of the Gospels might have been impostors. However, the early church widely accepted the Gospels based on their apostolic origins and consistency with the oral tradition. Impostors would have had little to gain from fabricating a prophecy that could easily be disproved, especially since many of Jesus’ followers were still alive when the Gospels were written (1 Corinthians 15:6).
The prophecy of Jesus’ death and resurrection holds up under scrutiny when evaluated through historical methods and contextual understanding. The suggestion that the Gospel authors fabricated this prophecy is unlikely, given the historical reliability of the texts, the principle of embarrassment, and the cultural and theological context.
Dr. Ismail
Assessment
The prophecy in the gospel is that Jesus allegedly claims (as did his disciples and Paul) that his death and resurrection on the third day is a known/public message that (all) the prophets had written down and preached over the time before his advent.
(See Luke 18:31–33, Luke 24:44–46, Matthew 11:13, Luke 24:25–27, 1 Corinthians 15:3–4, Acts 3:18 Acts 3:24–25, Acts 2:29–31, etc )
Unfortunately, there are certain problems with this claim and its peripheral background.
My Response (YahwehSaves)
Claim Summary:
You assert that Jesus, His disciples, and Paul claim that His death and resurrection on the third day was a well-known message preached by the prophets. They imply skepticism, stating there are “certain problems” with this claim and its background.
Refutation:
Logical Fallacy: Argument from Ignorance
You assumes that if the prophecy isn’t overtly stated in a way they expect (e.g., verbatim references to “death and resurrection on the third day”), it must not exist. This is an argument from ignorance, which assumes absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Prophecy in the Old Testament often employs typology (symbolism) and layered meanings, rather than explicit, word-for-word predictions. For example:
1. Hosea 6:2: “After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will restore us, that we may live in His presence.” This passage, though not immediately obvious, is widely seen by Christians as typological of Jesus’ resurrection.
2. Psalm 16:10: “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let Your Holy One see corruption,” is interpreted by Peter in Acts 2:29-31 as a prophecy of the resurrection.
3. Isaiah 53: The entire chapter foretells the suffering, death, and vindication (resurrection) of the Messiah, though it does not explicitly mention “three days.”
The absence of an overt “third-day resurrection” statement does not invalidate the claim, as ancient Jewish interpretative methods often revealed hidden layers of meaning in Scripture.
Typology and the Prophets’ Message
Jesus and the apostles interpreted the Old Testament typologically, pointing to patterns and events that foreshadowed His death and resurrection:
* Jonah 1:17: Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights, which Jesus explicitly likens to His death and resurrection in Matthew 12:40.
* Exodus 12:46: The Passover lamb, whose blood saved Israel, foreshadows Christ’s sacrificial death.
* Genesis 22: Abraham’s offering of Isaac on the third day prefigures the Father’s offering of His Son.
These examples show how Jesus and His followers viewed the Old Testament as containing veiled but profound prophecies of His mission.
Logical Fallacy: Hasty Generalization
You prematurely assumes a problem exists if the Old Testament does not explicitly state the claim as they expect. However, the New Testament authors’ interpretations reflect a consistent tradition of understanding Messianic prophecy through a lens of fulfillment, typology, and revelation.
Jesus directly ties His suffering, death, and resurrection to the prophetic message in Luke 24:25-27: “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.”
Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 that Christ’s death and resurrection are “according to the Scriptures.” This refers to the overall prophetic witness of the Old Testament.
Peripheral Claims Are Contextualized
The “peripheral background” that Jesus’ death and resurrection were foretold by the prophets aligns with the Jewish expectation of a suffering, redeeming Messiah (Isaiah 53, Daniel 9:26).
The New Testament does not fabricate this connection but reveals how Jesus fulfills these prophecies in ways previously misunderstood or overlooked by His contemporaries.
Dr Ismail raise 5 Problems in his Food for Thought. We will proceed to review these problems and respond to them.
Dr. Ismail
Problem #1
▫️If the message of the crucifixion and resurrection of the messiah on the third day is already a known/public belief or expectation among the Jews via the writing and preaching of (all) their prophets over time, WHY were the disciples and teachers of the law surprisingly appalled at the idea when Jesus declared such a prophecy to them ?
(See Matthew 16:21-23, Mark 8:31–33, John 12:32–34, Acts 17:2–3, etc )
My Response (YahwehSaves)
Here we are going to be detailed in our response to this problem identified and if the subsequent problem require such we will not hesitate to do the same.
Refutation
The main point to address here is WHY were the disciples and teachers of the law surprisingly appalled at the idea when Jesus declared such a prophecy to them ?
This argument presents an apparent contradiction: if the crucifixion and resurrection of the Messiah on the third day were a known expectation, why were the disciples and others surprised or resistant when Jesus declared this prophecy?
To address Problem #1 and the question of why the disciples and the religious leaders of Jesus’ time were appalled at His prophecy of His death and resurrection, it is essential to delve into the historical, cultural, and theological factors that shaped their expectations of the Messiah. These expectations were deeply influenced by their tumultuous history, their interpretations of Scripture, and their immediate socio-political circumstances. Let’s address it step by step, highlighting points and providing a robust refutation.
1. The Historical and Cultural Context of First-Century Judaism
a) The 400-year gap between Malachi and the New Testament
After the prophet Malachi, there was a prolonged period (approximately 400 years) where no recognized prophets arose among the Jews. During this period, known as the “Intertestamental Period,” the Jewish people experienced significant upheavals, including the
– The Babylonian exile and later restorations under Persian and Greek rule.
– The Maccabean revolt, leading to a brief period of independence.
– Subjugation under the Roman Empire, which created a longing for liberation.
This era led to a fragmentation of Jewish beliefs, practices, and expectations. Without prophetic guidance , new traditions and interpretations of the Scriptures emerged, often influenced by their socio-political struggles. By the time of Jesus, many Jews were unfamiliar with or had misinterpreted the messianic prophecies. This unfamiliarity explains why Jesus’ teachings about a suffering Messiah were initially shocking, even to His disciples (elaborations beloe).
b) Restoration to the land and the rise of divergent views
After centuries of upheaval and exile, the first-century Jews were largely disconnected from a holistic understanding of their Scriptures. Without prophetic guidance, many lost sight of the broader context of messianic prophecies, including the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 and the “cut off” Messiah of Daniel 9:26.
Many first-century Jews were new generations who relied on interpretations passed down by religious leaders rather than engaging directly with the Scriptures. This lack of familiarity led to misinterpretations of messianic expectations.
During the post-exilic period, the Jews returned to their homeland but remained under foreign rule. The desire for a national deliverer, one who would liberate them from oppression, grew stronger. The idea of a conquering, Davidic king became the dominant expectation, overshadowing the concept of a suffering servant. This expectation was more appealing to a people who had endured centuries of subjugation and exile. This period saw a decline in direct prophetic revelation and the rise of rabbinical interpretations and traditions. These traditions often reflected the immediate political and social needs of the people rather than a comprehensive understanding of the Scriptures.
c) Evidence for presence of Qumran and the suffering Messiah
Despite the prevalence of the Davidic king expectation, some groups, like the Qumran community (associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls), recognized and upheld the concept of a suffering Messiah. Their writings reflect interpretations of passages like Isaiah 53, which portray the Messiah as one who would suffer and bear the sins of others. This shows that the idea of a suffering Messiah was not entirely absent but rather overshadowed by other expectations.
2. Misinterpretations of Messianic prophecies
Different expectations of the Messiah
The three recognized roles of the Messiah in Jewish tradition were:
a) Prophet – A teacher and spiritual leader, as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-18.
b) Suffering Servant – A redeemer who would bear the sins of many, as described in Isaiah 53.
c) Davidic King – A ruler who would establish God’s kingdom on earth, as prophesied in 2 Samuel 7:12-16.
While all three roles are biblically grounded, first-century Jews prioritized the Davidic king due to their immediate political struggles under Roman rule. This misplaced priority led many to overlook or reject the prophecies about the suffering servant. Even Daniel, during the Babylonian exile, spoke of the Messiah as one who would be “cut off” (Daniel 9:26), indicating suffering and death rather than immediate triumph.
Daniel’s prophecy aligns with the idea of a suffering Messiah and serves as evidence that the concept was present in Jewish Scriptures. However, it was not the dominant interpretation among first-century Jews
3. The Disciples’ and Religious Leaders’ Misunderstanding
Historical suffering shaped expectations
The Jewish people’s long history of suffering and oppression – exile, subjugation, and persecution – shaped their collective psyche. They longed for a deliverer who would restore Israel’s glory and independence. This hope led to a widespread expectation of a military or political Messiah who would overthrow Roman rule. Consequently, the idea of a suffering and dying Messiah seemed contradictory to their desires and needs.
The Disciples’ Initial Shock
The Disciples’ Reaction Reflects a misunderstood Messiah as well just as the religious leaders of their time. Even Jesus’ closest followers, who had the benefit of His direct teaching, struggled to understand His mission. For example:
– Peter rebukes Jesus when He predicts His death (Matthew 16:22).
– The disciples fail to grasp the meaning of Jesus’ prediction (Luke 9:45).
This reaction highlights the disciples’ expectation of a victorious, earthly Messiah (shaped by their suffering), which was common in Jewish thought at the time reflects the prevailing cultural and theological misunderstanding rather than a lack of scriptural basis for a suffering Messiah. Jesus’ teaching about His death and resurrection challenged their deeply ingrained beliefs. The disciples’ surprise does not invalidate the prophecy but underscores their need for revelation to understand its true meaning (Luke 24:25-27).
The Religious Leaders’ Rejection
The religious leaders had a vested interest in maintaining their authority and traditions. Jesus’ message of a suffering Messiah challenged their interpretation of the Scriptures and their expectations of a triumphant, earthly king as well as their position within society. Their rejection of Jesus was rooted in their misunderstanding of the Scriptures and their unwillingness to relinquish control. In their desperation, many Jews prioritized the promise of a conquering king who would restore Israel’s glory, overlooking prophecies about the Messiah’s suffering and death. Despite this view, not all Jews subscribed to the conquering Messiah expectation. The Qumran community (associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls) upheld a view of the Messiah as a suffering servant. Their interpretations of Isaiah 53 and other prophecies highlight that the concept of a suffering and dying Messiah was present in Jewish thought, even if it was not the dominant view.
4. God’s Plan vs. Human Expectations
God’s thoughts are Not Man’s thoughts
Isaiah 55:8-9 reminds us that God’s ways and thoughts are higher than human ways. While the Jewish people expected immediate deliverance, God’s plan focused on eternal redemption through the suffering and resurrection of the Messiah.
God’s plan, as revealed in the Scriptures, was to fulfill His promise of salvation through the suffering Messiah. This plan addressed humanity’s greatest need—reconciliation with God—rather than temporary political liberation.
Jesus’ mission corrected the human tendency to misinterpret God’s promises according to immediate desires and circumstances.
Another question we should consider is whether Jesus fit into these prophecies phase by phase as God planned it or not. The point is Jesus fits perfectly into the three recognized roles of the Messiah in Jewish tradition, and the Scriptures provide a solid foundation for this understanding.
Absolutely, Jesus fits perfectly into the three recognized roles of the Messiah in Jewish tradition, and the Scriptures provide a solid foundation for this understanding. Here’s a detailed explanation of each role, with references to how Jesus fulfills them:
a) Prophet – The Teacher and Spiritual Leader
Prophecy in the Old Testament
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
Moses foretold the coming of a prophet like himself, who would speak God’s words and lead the people in truth:
> “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.”
Fulfillment in Jesus
Jesus consistently presented Himself as a prophet, teaching with authority and declaring God’s truth:
>> Matthew 21:11
The crowds recognized Him as “Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
>> Luke 13:33
Jesus refers to Himself as a prophet when He says, “I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!”
>> John 7:40
Many who heard Him teach identified Him as the Prophet Moses had foretold.
Jesus’ prophetic role involved not only teaching but also foretelling future events, such as His crucifixion, resurrection, and the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:2, Luke 21:6).
b) Suffering Servant – The Redeemer
Prophecy in the Old Testament
>> Isaiah 53
This chapter vividly describes the Messiah as a suffering servant who would bear the sins of humanity, be rejected, and die for the transgressions of others:
> “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.”
(Isaiah 53:5).
Fulfillment in Jesus
Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection embody the suffering servant described by Isaiah:
>> Matthew 20:28
Jesus explicitly states His mission: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
>> John 1:29
John the Baptist identifies Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, alluding to the sacrificial role of the suffering servant.
>> 1 Peter 2:24
Peter declares, “He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.”
c) Davidic King – The Eternal Ruler
Prophecy in the Old Testament
>> 2 Samuel 7:12-16
God promises David that his offspring will establish an eternal kingdom:
“Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.”
>> Micah 5:2
The Messiah is prophesied to come from Bethlehem, the city of David.
Fulfillment in Jesus
Jesus is referred to as the Son of David, emphasizing His royal lineage and messianic role:
>>Luke 1:32-33
The angel Gabriel announces that Jesus will inherit David’s throne and reign forever: “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.”
>> Matthew 21:9
The crowd hails Jesus as the Son of David during His triumphal entry into Jerusalem.
Jesus’ kingship is not limited to Israel but extends to all creation:
>> John 18:36
Jesus declares, “My kingdom is not of this world.” His rule transcends earthly boundaries, fulfilling the eternal nature of the Davidic promise.
> Revelation 19:16
Jesus is identified as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, reigning in ultimate authority.
How These Roles Integrate in Jesus
While the Jewish community at the time struggled to reconcile these roles, Jesus embodies them perfectly:
– As a Prophet , He proclaimed the truth, taught with divine authority, and foretold His mission.
– As the Suffering Servant , He fulfilled the sacrificial requirements for sin, bringing redemption to humanity.
– As the Davidic King , He established a spiritual kingdom that will culminate in His eternal reign when He returns.
Jesus perfectly fulfills the three roles of the Messiah described in Scripture, correcting misplaced expectations and establishing the foundation for Christian faith. The Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, harmoniously attest to this multifaceted messianic mission, affirming Jesus as Prophet, Suffering Servant, and Davidic King.
Dr. Ismail
Problem #2
▫️ If (all) the prophets truly wrote and preached this message over time (as claimed by Jesus), then it would unavoidably mean that there was a significant time gap where this message and the scriptures about it was lost or removed such that the later generations are unaware of it, thus proving that the Bible is corrupt.
My Response (YahwehSaves)
To prove that I understand your point well, let me restate your argument.
Your argument in Problem #2 posits that if all the Old Testament prophets truly prophesied the death and resurrection of the Messiah, then a significant gap must have occurred in which this prophecy was “lost” or “removed” from the Jewish people, leading to their lack of understanding and the absence of such a message until Jesus’ time. If such a gap existed, the you argues, it would suggest the Bible is corrupt.
In response, we need to unpack several key issues related to Jewish expectations, historical context (you may see answer to problem #1) , the nature of prophetic fulfillment, and the preservation of Scripture.
Let’s address this systematically, identifying the logical fallacies and providing a detailed refutation.
Logical Fallacies in your argument
1. False Dilemma (Bifurcation Fallacy)
You assumes only two possibilities: either
(a) the message was widely known and explicitly clear, or
(b) the Bible is corrupt because the message was “lost” or “removed.”
This ignores a third, more plausible explanation:
the message was always present in Scripture but was veiled or misinterpreted, and its full meaning was revealed through Jesus Christ and the apostles’ teachings.
2. Circular Reasoning
You presupposes that the lack of widespread understanding of this message implies corruption, but this conclusion is based on the assumption that every prophecy must have been explicitly understood by all readers from the beginning. This is circular reasoning, as it uses the lack of clarity to “prove” corruption without evidence.
3. Equivocation
You conflate misunderstanding or lack of recognition with the actual absence of the message. The fact that certain aspects of prophecy were not universally understood does not mean the Scriptures were corrupted.
Refutation:
The Message Was Always Present but Veiled
Jesus and the apostles affirmed that the Scriptures already contained this message but that it was veiled and required revelation for proper understanding:
>> Luke 24:25-27
Jesus explains the Scriptures, showing how they foretold His suffering and resurrection.
>> 1 Peter 1:10-12
The prophets themselves searched and inquired into the meaning of their own writings, recognizing that they were writing about things that would only be fully understood later.
Even though the people misrepresented the prophecies, the message was not “lost” or “removed” but hidden in typology, symbolism, and progressive revelation.
Prophetic Language Is Often Symbolic or Indirect
Many prophecies use figurative language, metaphors, or typology that only make full sense in hindsight. For example:
>>> Hosea 6:2
“After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will restore us.” This becomes clear in light of the resurrection.
>>> Jonah 1:17
Jonah’s three days in the fish is interpreted by Jesus as a sign of His resurrection (Matthew 12:40).
>>> Isaiah 53
The Suffering Servant’s death and vindication foreshadow Jesus’ mission but were not explicitly connected to Him until the New Testament.
The indirect nature of these prophecies does not imply corruption but reflects the manner in which divine truths were progressively revealed.
The Role of Human Misunderstanding
The lack of widespread recognition of this message among the Jews does not point to corruption but to human misunderstanding and selective interpretation.
* Many Jews focused on prophecies of the Messiah as a conquering king (e.g., Isaiah 9:6-7) while overlooking those that spoke of suffering and death (Isaiah 53, Psalm 22).
* Jesus Himself criticized the religious leaders for failing to understand the Scriptures:
>> John 5:39-40
> “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.”
The Bible’s Transmission and Integrity
The claim of corruption is unsupported by historical evidence. The Jewish Scriptures (the Old Testament) were meticulously preserved and transmitted by scribes. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrates the remarkable consistency of the Hebrew Bible over centuries. Jesus affirmed the authority of the Scriptures in His time (Matthew 5:17-18) and never suggested that they had been corrupted or altered.
If you would like to know why the misunderstanding of Jesus mission by his disciples and the religious leaders, See my response to problem #1 where I dealt with historicity of it.
The Prophetic Tradition and Its Preservation
a. Continuity of Prophecy from the Old Testament to the New Testament
i) Prophetic Revelation is Progressive
The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies about the coming Messiah, and many of them offer only partial or veiled understandings. For example, passages like Isaiah 53 (the suffering servant), Daniel 9:26 (the cutting off of the Messiah), and Psalm 22 (a psalm of suffering) are prophetic about the Messiah’s death and suffering but were not fully understood or recognized until Jesus’ time. This is important because the nature of prophecy, especially in the Old Testament, often involved layers of meaning that could only be fully understood after the events occurred.
Jesus’ teaching revealed the hidden meaning of these prophecies. Luke 24:25-27 describes how Jesus explained to His disciples how the Scriptures were fulfilled in Him, showing them that the prophets had indeed written about the Messiah’s suffering and resurrection. Thus, these prophecies were always there, but their full meaning was revealed progressively.
ii) The role of the prophets was not to give all details at once
Prophets often spoke in mysterious or symbolic language, and their messages were intended to point to a future fulfillment that was not immediately apparent. For instance, the Book of Daniel speaks about the Messiah coming as a “son of man” (Daniel 7:13-14) but does not explicitly mention suffering or resurrection. These themes were revealed in stages across different prophets, and the people of Israel could only understand these messages in their fullness once the Messiah arrived.
b. The 400-Year Silence Between Malachi and Jesus
i. The Intertestamental Period and the Jewish State of Mind.
From the time of the prophet Malachi (around 400 BCE) until the arrival of John the Baptist and Jesus in the 1st century, there were no major prophetic figures in Israel. This period, often referred to as the Intertestamental Period, was a time of significant political and social upheaval for the Jewish people, marked by exile, colonization, and the search for political and religious identity.
Expectations Shaped by Foreign Rule
During this time, the Jews experienced multiple periods of foreign domination (e.g., under the Greeks and Romans), and their hopes for the Messiah became heavily influenced by their desire for political and military liberation rather than spiritual salvation. The Jewish expectation was largely centered around a conquering Messiah, someone who would free them from foreign oppression. These ideas often overshadowed other prophetic pictures, such as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 or the Messiah’s death and resurrection.
The silence was not complete loss of prophecy
While the Jews had not had a prophet in the traditional sense during these 400 years, there were other religious writings, traditions, and interpretations circulating in Jewish communities. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls (discovered at Qumran) contain writings that reflect an expectation of a suffering Messiah. The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, though not part of the Jewish canon, contain messianic themes that show awareness of suffering and resurrection motifs.
The gap in knowledge was due to Misinterpretation, not absence of Prophecy
The reason the Jewish people did not understand the death and resurrection of the Messiah was not because the prophecy was “lost” or “removed” but because they misinterpreted the prophetic scriptures. For example, many Jews focused on passages like Psalm 2 (the Messiah as a victorious king) or Zechariah 9:9 (the Messiah riding on a donkey) while neglecting passages that spoke of His suffering, such as Isaiah 53.
John 5:39-40 demonstrates how the Jewish leaders studied the Scriptures but failed to see that they pointed to Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus rebukes them for this: “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
The argument that these prophecies were lost or removed is not supported by historical evidence. Jewish writings from the time (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran texts, Septuagint translations) demonstrate that many Jews were still engaging with prophecies about the Messiah, though they had different interpretations. These texts reveal an ongoing tradition of messianic expectation, including a suffering and risen Messiah, but these ideas were not fully realized until the fulfillment in Jesus.
Jesus’ resurrection from the dead served as the divine confirmation of all the prophecies He had claimed to fulfill. It provided the key to unlocking the understanding of Old Testament Scriptures.
uke 24:44-46 explicitly tells us that after His resurrection, Jesus opened the minds of His disciples to understand the Scriptures. He explained how the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, thus demonstrating that these prophecies were always part of God’s plan but were not fully comprehended until Jesus’ ministry and resurrection.
Luke 24:44-46 explicitly tells us that after His resurrection, Jesus opened the minds of His disciples to understand the Scriptures. He explained how the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, thus demonstrating that these prophecies were always part of God’s plan but were not fully comprehended until Jesus’ ministry and resurrection.
In conclusion, your argument that the death and resurrection prophecies were “lost” or “removed” from Jewish tradition is not supported by historical or theological evidence. Rather, these prophecies were always present in the Scriptures, but their full understanding was hidden until the time of Jesus. The failure to recognize these prophecies was a result of misinterpretation due to the prevailing cultural and political expectations of a conquering Messiah. Jesus’ mission was not to introduce a new message but to reveal and fulfill the Old Testament prophecies in His person, death, and resurrection. Thus, the claim that these prophecies were lost or removed does not stand up to scrutiny, and the resurrection of Jesus served as the key to unlocking their true meaning.
Dr. Ismail
Problem #3
▫️The past prophets clearly wrote and preached about it over time but all the people were NOT able understand their messages at all until Jesus came and began to argue with them.
My Response (YahwehSaves)
You here claim that the past prophets “clearly wrote and preached” the message of the Messiah’s death and resurrection, yet the people could not understand these messages until Jesus came and argued with them. This is framed as a critique but is, in reality, a misunderstanding of how prophecy works and how divine revelation unfolds. Let’s address this systematically, identifying logical fallacies and providing a refutation.
Logical Fallacies in your Argument
1. Strawman Fallacy
You misrepresents the Christian claim by suggesting that prophecy must have been “clear” to everyone from the start. This is not what Christians argue. Instead, Christians hold that the full understanding of these prophecies was veiled and intentionally revealed progressively over time, culminating in Jesus.
2. Equivocation
You use “clearly” ambiguously, implying that clarity means everyone should immediately understand. However, biblical prophecy often contains layers of meaning that require interpretation and fulfillment to be fully understood.
Refutation
Prophecy Is Often Veiled or Symbolic
Prophecies in Scripture are rarely presented in an immediately obvious, straightforward manner. Instead, they are often written in poetic, symbolic, or typological language. For example:
Isaiah 53
The suffering servant is described in terms that seem contradictory to the prevailing view of a triumphant Messiah. The connection to Jesus only became clear in hindsight.
Psalm 22
The psalm describes suffering and eventual vindication but is not explicitly linked to the Messiah until Jesus fulfills it.
This veiled nature of prophecy serves several purposes:
– It invites deeper study and reflection.
– It prevents premature or misdirected interpretations before the fulfillment.
Biblical Evidence
1 Peter 1:10-12
>> “Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.”
This shows that even the prophets themselves did not fully understand the details of what they wrote, as their writings were meant for a future audience.
The People’s Lack of Understanding Was Foretold
The lack of understanding among the people was not a failure of the Scriptures or the prophets but was foretold as part of the divine plan:
>> Isaiah 6:9-10
> “Go and tell this people: ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'”
This prophecy indicates that spiritual blindness was a common issue among the people of Israel.
>> Daniel 12:8-9
Even Daniel acknowledges that some prophecies were sealed and would not be fully understood until “the time of the end.”
Jesus frequently rebuked His contemporaries for their spiritual blindness:
>> Matthew 13:13-15
Jesus explains that He speaks in parables because many are unwilling to see or hear the truth, fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecy of spiritual dullness.
Jesus Came to Clarify and Fulfill
One of Jesus’ missions was to reveal the true meaning of the Scriptures:
>> Luke 24:44-45
After His resurrection, Jesus explained,
> “Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” Then He opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
This demonstrates that the message was always present in Scripture but required Jesus to “open their minds” to its full meaning.
Jesus also clarified that misunderstanding was due to hardened hearts, not a lack of clarity in Scripture:
>> John 5:39-40
> “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.”
Gradual Revelation Is Central to God’s Plan
The Bible consistently shows that God reveals His plan progressively, with greater clarity as time unfolds:
Hebrews 1:1-2
> “In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son.”
This passage highlights that Jesus represents the culmination of God’s revelation, bringing clarity to what was previously veiled.
This gradual unveiling ensures that each generation has its role in God’s redemptive plan, while the ultimate meaning is revealed at the appropriate time.
So, your argument overlooks the nature of biblical prophecy and the reality of spiritual blindness. The prophets did indeed write about the Messiah’s suffering and resurrection, but their messages were veiled, requiring Jesus to clarify and fulfill them. This was not a failure of the Scriptures but part of God’s plan for progressive revelation.
